Who is iSAD? Why is your identity secret?
As some of you may already realize, it is very risky to speak out about the internship process. In speaking out we risk our future professional opportunities, future chances at internship, or future professional relationships. If the risk did not exist, it would not have taken so long to initiate a group like iSAD where everyone affected by the internship process can share their experiences. Now that we have, we welcome you to join us and enjoy the benefits that sharing our stories can bring.
What is iSAD planning on doing with these stories and comments?
We will invite all those who have an ability to change the current internship system to view the impact statements and the associated comments. We believe that by sharing our stories, we can influence change. When people understand the harm the current system inflicts, the urgency to change the system will hopefully intensify. We have waited long enough. We need as many stories as possible to make the greatest impact. We are counting on you.
19 comments:
I am not a dietetic educator, intern or student. However, I do have a few thoughts on this topic.
I can understand that people need a forum to release their negative or hurt emotions towards the internship selection processes. However, I would like to note that the extreme competition that students in this blog are reporting is not specific to dietetic internship applications --entry into ANY profession these days is equally as demanding and competitive. Think, for example, about medical school, veterinary school, business school. And once one is in a profession, there is competition for jobs, promotions, and recognition.
While I empathize with the applicants who worked very hard during their undergraduate studies, successful at internship applications or not, I do not feel sorry for you. It is just part of the reality of the real world outside of school. Competition is a fact of life.
I strongly disagree with the above comment. I have done research on internships in other profession and it is NOT the same. Can you tell me if the internship part of these professions have less than 50% success rate? Let's see:
Naturopathic medicine, occupational therapy, and physiotherapy --> the internship is integrated into the program.
Nursing --> internship is not mandatory even though some internship programs have been created to ease the transition from school to practice
Medicine --> there is NO SHORTAGE in residency placement despite the competitiveness
I entered this program knowing that the success rate of getting an internship can be 50% or lower. I thought that having straight As would guarantee me a position. I have extensive work and volunteer experiences and numerous awards. I am never off the deans' list. I was hopeful.
But after seeing so many of my peers got turned down despite their excellent scholastic achievement, I am no longer very hopeful. I am still lucky to have support from my friends in the program and people who are close to me. But I don't expect support from people like you, because you will NEVER understand...
I think a perspective from another profession is interesting. However, I do agree that it is NOT the same. Especially because you do not seem to understand the lengths we go to to obtain an internship. As for people outside the nutrition profession...It isn't that we want you to feel "sorry" for us, we just want you to become aware of this issue. And it is an issue. I know I have struggled trying to get my friends and family to understand that pain I was feeling. They just don't get it. We need awareness and we need people to talk about this so it can change.
iSAD. This is great. I support you 100%. Please continue doing what your doing. I got an internship the second time trying. I can tell you that the stress, anxiety, shame, guilt, that I have felt going through this process has affected me and those around me. I didn't give up, I kept trying and working hard to get an internship... but I still feel for those who weren't so "lucky". I think it is the luck of a draw. There is no reason why I should have got an internship and my equally as qualified, if not more qualified friend did not...
While I completely agree that the internship process established by other professions is absolutely NOT the same as that for dietetics, I am not sure that dietetics should be measured by the standards set by professions that are quite different.
Research on dietetic education and training has shown that the internship application process breeds competition among students which is antithetical to the collaborative spirit educators wish to instill in the profession's future practitioners. This has a long term impact on the professional culture of dietetics which we also see in research on horizontal violence and burnout.
The damage done by the internship process currently operating in dietetics is enough to warrant iSAD speaking up and the changes this group is calling for regardless of what other professions are willing to settle for.
To the first person who posted:
I don't know if you are a dietitian or not, but our nutrition programs are small and everyone knows everybody. The competition between students is out of control. When internship application time came around, students were crazy obsessed. I had a hard time focusing on anything but my application. Fortunetaly, I was successful at getting an internship, but I was the worst process I have ever had to go through.
Hi there, it's me again from post#1
Perhaps I should have been more clear re: other professions. What about all this students who are in a BSc program who write their MCAT, work hard in school, volunteer like crazy, apply for medical school and don't get in? Is that not the same as this process of applying for internship - both are post graduate professional programs. And all students enter the BSc program with the hope of being able to enter into the respective profession. I know from personal experience that those individuals rejected from med school feel the same way that many of the students on this blog feel. There are far too few medical school positions compared to the number that apply. I suspect the success rate is far below 50%. I'm sure it's the same for law school entry, vet school, etc. Even after finishing a BSc in nutrition, you have a BSc just like the thousands of other students. It's up to you to do something with that....if you really want to be a dietitian, try again next year. That year of experience will give you more life-experience, build character and improve your chances of success.
It is nice that such a forum exists to enable students to share their feelings and gain peer support, which is important. Although I question its utility in lobbying for change in the internship selection process. Such lobbying requires cold hard facts like cost effectiveness of integrated programs, unemployment figures among graduates of BSc nutrition programs, and improved resource utilization among Ontario hospitals and universities should an integrated program be implemented. On the contrary, sending a letter to Dalton McGuinty highlighting that twenty-something year old girls feelings are hurt because they did not get an internship is highly unlikely to be effective in getting funding to support the change towards integrated programs. Sorry to state that (I don't intend to hurt or offend anyone), but I think you will agree that it's true re: this approach. Furthermore, I'm guessing that this sort of lobbying is likely to trigger unintended feelings of defensiveness and aversion among universities and hospital programs, as I'm sure they already empathize with those students who don't get internships. I doubt that they are 'bad' people who are intentionally trying to hurt students. That is how this blg is making them out to be. I just feel like there is a more positive approach that could be taken, and that this is not teaching students the right way to go about facilitating change.
To the previous poster - I am a dietitian, but am not employed by a hospital or university with an internship program...thus, I have no conflicts of interest.
I hear from the posts that this has allowed everyone to share feeling but agree I don't think the government will respond to such 'negative' feelings. This is not lobbying and will not help you or the profession.
I received my internship the 2nd time around and I have to say I learned a lot about myself and my skills over the past year. I think not having the internship last year allowed me to further develop, grow and become mature.
My boyfriend is in a business program and he is required to do a year long internship unpaid. He reminds me every day of how grateful he is for his experience and opportunity. He has countless number of colleagues who support him every day. Professionals who go out of their way to give him advice, mentor and teach him.
I feel that I need to say to those posting on this blog that while I know what it feels like I am not sure what you hope to gain from taking such a negative tone on all this experience. I agree with the first post completely.
I empathize with everyone however blogging your negative feelings does not demonstrate maturity from my perspective. I have heard how hard programs have worked to expand their class size from peers in the current programs and want to thank them for all their dedication and support.
I hope you learn to take the experiences that come forward and become more positive. We need professionals who want to be 'professional' hence expressing hurt feelings on a blog with such negativity and anger will not help you in the long term.
You may not agree with me but I have to say that I have only heard amazing things about internship programs and the preceptors out there. Will it be hard yes but that is what I am going to enjoy. I want to be challenged to learn. Also, to those out there remember one thing: just because one or two people had a negative experience during a year does not mean that this is what you will experience. You make it what you want to make it! If you come into a program negative you will only take a negative journey.
I have heard about amazing experiences from my peers about how much they enjoyed their internship. How much their coordinators have put into their program and how much preceptors put into teaching us. I feel bad for them as this blog will hurt more than actually give. We have forgotten about them in this process. We have forgotten about the coordinators who have done amazing things for students and interns. WE have forgotten about the support institutions put into supporting programs. So I want to say thank you to all the universities, program coordinators and preceptors out there! They deserve to be thanked, congratulated and recognized from everyone.
The comment about applying to Med school as being the same as applying to be a dietitian is somewhat disingenuous. If you apply for Med school and get in, you get to complete four more years working towards becoming a doctor i.e. you complete your professional academic training knowing you are IN. If you apply for dietetics, you complete four years NOT knowing if you are in and can be denied entry at the end of it even after apply a second, third, and fourth time before then having to upgrade your academics if you want to apply following that. A colleague once said in relation to the current system in Ontario, "I think the pain heightens with duration of the promise." She has a very good point.
Are you suggesting a pre-dietetics degree like people do with pre-Med? Hmmm. Not sure about that approach.
Furthermore, some dietetic students do go on to apply to Med school when dietetics won't/can't take them. With their nutrition background, they make mighty fine docs!
I see the point about medical school being like internship. I go to Brescia at UWO. Our program is called a Bachelor of Science in Human Ecology (Food and Nutrition). It is not really a dietetics training program, like the program at McGill, because there is no internship integrated and you can have any career path after taking this program. So I guess in a way we are like a pre-dietetics program because dietetics is the profession we could potentially go into. Just like pre-med programs.
The problem is that the university and the students only focus on doing dietetics afterwards. So not everyone knows about the other career options.
My sister applied to medical school this year and only got 2 interviews. I can see your point because shee was SO stressed before her interviews and has a lot of anxiety about her future and getting into med school. She wants to get in so badly and will likely be devestated if she doesn't. Just like a lot of the people on this website.
Like the other student, I love my program and have been having a great experience so far. I hope to get an internship in the future. I'm disappointed to hear about these negative experiences people have had. Hopefully all these issues be sorted out by then.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead
US anthropologist & popularizer of anthropology (1901 - 1978)
That is exactly the quote that inspired Osama Bin Laden.
(LOL, sorry I couldn't resist!)
Didn't mean to offend...perhaps the Tunisian Effect is a more appropriate example of that quote in action.
Perhaps the students who created this blog should partner with their professors at their universities to evaluate the outcomes that were suggested in the post at 8:09 today. That would be much more productive than just harbouring resentment.
To those students:
It seems like if you were pointed in the right direction a lot of good could come out of the interest and energy that you have in this topic. A professor who does reserach would be able to help you with a project (or at least find someone you could talk to) that can examine these hard outcomes like cost-effectiveness of integrated programs, which would me more convincing and more postive than the arguments presented here...perhaps a good Masters project for someone who didn't get an internship!
To the person who posted at 13:50 today:
I think that your idea is certainly a good one, and it is indeed something that I think I would be interested in researching. I don't really know how this would go over with some of my professors, though. From what I've heard, the reaction of university faculties to this iSAD blog has been VERY negative. I think that if I were to bring it up to one of them, I would lose some of the respect that they have for me. I'm scared of this. I guess that's why the iSAD group (and everyone else who is commenting here) is posting anonymously. Questioning those who have power is very scary when they may have control over your future career. It's a bit of a predicament, isn't it?
And with that said, I would also like to commend the iSAD group for speaking out. It was very courageous of you to do so, and I know that it's making me feel not quite so alone.
I don't think that any of the posts on this blog are stating or even implying that the faculty, internship coordinators (at either the universities BSc programs or the hospital internship programs) are in any way bad people or necessarily bad at their jobs. On the contrary my internship coordinator was fantastic.
What these posts are suggesting is that the SYSTEM is deeply flawed and has cause students and interns a lot of heartache. It is not just the rejection when people don't get in. It is the competition leading up to the internship; it is the resounding silence; is the lack of transparency that breeds total paranoia and fuels ridiculous rumours.
Just like this system has and is hurting students, it has and is also hurting internship coordinators and university faculty who also have come through the system and continue to operate within it. We are all complicit and trapped by it. It is self-destructive for all of us.
As other comments elsewhere on the blog have mentioned, this is a well-known problem and not one that iSAD is the first to make note of or to act out against. I agree with the commenter above who notes that many savvy folks have worked long and hard to make changes, but still the system remains virtually unchanged.
Whether we are all in agreement about what changes exactly need to be made, I think we must agree that this is likely the first time students, faculty, coordinators, and other decision makers (albeit anonymously) have engaged in dialogue about this problem.
I hope this blog is seen for what it is intended to be. An outcry for the system to change for all of us.
Hi,
It is quite amusing how this blog is stirring so much controversy. There is a Task Force in place which is working towards changing the system. So if the iSAD group which is bringing these concerns, stories and hurt that the system creates out into the public, what is the problem? To me you all should be working together. I don't understand why certain individuals are criticizing students for speaking up. If everyone acknowledges that the system is flawed and needs change (hence the Task Force) why does this bother people?
I agree. Why can't we all agree that it is flawed? I wouldn't blame one particular part of the process... we need to work together. And I think it would be great to have current R.D.'s on board with nutrition students and interns.
That is excellent to hear that there is a Task Force working on this.
What has the Task Force accomplished so far? Who is on the Task Force? Are nutrition students and interns involved?
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