Dear Readers,
It was brought to our attention that some comments do not appear on our blog. We would like to ensure you that we are not screening the comments. All comments are automatically posted, however some comments are automatically treated as spam and are not posted. If you are trying to post a comment but are not successful, please e-mail it to us at theprojectisad@gmail.com and we will post it for you. The following post came to us from Carolyn T. Thank you, Carolyn, for your perspective.
Dear isad,
I know the process seems unfair from your vantage point, but I do not feel that it is the fault of the internship process but rather the universities. Do a little research into this side of things and you may discover that some universities have actually been reprimanded for cutting back on their curriculum. If you want to advocate for something, advocate for the poor quality of your education and against the misleading information that you feel you may have been provided by these institutions.
I know the process seems unfair from your vantage point, but I do not feel that it is the fault of the internship process but rather the universities. Do a little research into this side of things and you may discover that some universities have actually been reprimanded for cutting back on their curriculum. If you want to advocate for something, advocate for the poor quality of your education and against the misleading information that you feel you may have been provided by these institutions.
As someone who has recently experienced both sides of this process I fully understand your collective disappointment, and feel that your desire to commiserate with one another is a reasonable thing to do. I was unsuccessful at obtaining an internship the first time I applied, and felt, admittedly, heartbroken. I had to change my best-laid plans, and take time to do things to give myself an edge. I was eventually successful and at this point I am happier to have those other experiences under my belt.
Nevertheless, I do not feel that it is necessary, professional, or appropriate to target the internship programs in this spiteful way. From my perspective, there are several things that you are failing to properly consider:
1. The internship application process is not designed to cause harm or be discriminatory. These ideas are born out of hurt feelings and misplaced blame. I’m sure your families and friends are right there with you, telling you how unfair the process is and that it’s not your fault, desperately trying to satisfy you with justifications for why you were not offered a position. I know it is hard to believe, but after observing the process from the inside I can honestly say that it is constantly being revised with the applicants in mind. The bottom line is, there are just far too many well-qualified applicants.
2. Perhaps you are focusing your energy on the wrong side of the picture. Why don’t you have any initiatives directed at the tuition-hungry universities and ensuring the quality of your education? Who is it that continues to open up their programs to more students each year, forcing the programs to cut back the curriculum and produce students who are progressively less well prepared? What good is opening up the university programs to let in far more students than the internships, (and the profession), can accommodate?
3. Your manifesto states that the internship programs should be redesigned to guarantee positions to all qualified applicants. Is this realistic? Would you feel better if you had been allowed to complete not only your undergrad but also your internship before reaching the roadblock of not being able to find a job?
4. Lastly, we are a pack of high-achievers! Most of you have probably never been said “no” to before in your life; you’ve probably been offered every job you applied for, and are accustomed to receiving constant praise for you work. It is difficult to accept, but sometimes you just can’t have everything you want in life. This is not the first time you won’t get what you wanted, and frankly, no one ever promised it to you! The best thing you can do is be flexible and work with what the world hands you. These skills will get you further in the future!
If you still think this is what you want then pull yourself together and keep trying! If you give up at this point you can’t possibly have wanted it badly enough in the first place. Find out what you can improve on. Better yourself through job experience and/or further education. Make sure you are well-rounded individuals; being academically strong on its own is not adequate to prepare you for a professional work setting. Seek out unique new learning opportunities to add to your resume, gain job experience working with a variety of people, and really understand what type of program you are applying to. The programs are all designed differently and require interns whose work habits, communication skills, future goals, and personalities are properly suited to them. In a sea of well-qualified applicants, those who are accepted need to “fit” into their internship program to be truly successful. Take a deep breath and a long, hard look at yourself before you consider giving applications another shot. Maybe you aren’t ever going to be the right person for this job, but you definitely won’t find out until you can be done with this pity party and start doing something productive.
I wish you all luck in your future endeavors and encourage you to take responsibility for your own success!
Sincerely,
Carolyn T., MSc
Dietetic Intern
Dietetic Intern
17 comments:
Carolyn,
You provide some compelling perspectives. The one that I am most curious about is your identification of the universities' role in this system. The university programs play a very significant role.
They don't have to say "no" to anyone; quite the opposite actually. If the universities had separate streams into which they admitted 30 or so students that were uniquely qualified for dietetics and had to apply for that stream. Whereas the alternate stream(s) could admit as many students as they wished.
I wonder where this option fits in what the task force is discussing. Why is the work of the taskforce so secret?
The task force was supposed to come out with a final report by March 31, 2011, as specified here http://www.dietitians.ca/Downloadable-Content/Public/Ontario-Task-Force-Communication-Nov-2010.aspx. I wonder where can we find the report.
I would like to add one caveat to the suggestion that universities provide a "streamed" program. If this were to occur, the universities would need to do a much better job at informing students what one can hope to do with and without an internship; in other words, with and without the RD designation.
What is more, what options for post-grad licensure do we need? Surely, not everyone is cut out for the very clinically focused internship programs we have currently in Ontario, but what about the demand for public health and administrative RDs?
What do we need to prepare young professionals to enter these practice areas?
I do appreciate your perspective, Carolyn. I really do. You have an especially relevant position in this issue.
However (you knew that was coming), comments such as "pull yourself together" only suggest that the most powerless players in this dietetic entry-to-practice game, the student applicants, are singularly responsible for changing themselves to fit the structure that exists. That is the antithesis to the approach to change that we learn in undergrad. We learn that individuals can only do so much, but the other factor in promoting dietary change is the social environment, the social determinants of health. So based on our education, I say, Carolyn, thanks for sharing, but geez, broaden your perspective!
Stay with your focus on the university greed, the internship coordinators' being squeezed into ambivalence, and DC's complete abdication. That is my take.
Sincerely,
Pro-Social Determinants, RD
I hear Carolyn's perspective and can agree that applicants may not be ready right away for an internship. But asking people get to basically 'pull yourself together' is kind of simplistic and naive.
There are applicants out there with great skills, grades, qualities etc.. Who knows maybe they answered one question different in an interview.
I know that feeling quite well in applying for graduate studies. Having numerous years of experience in both clinical and management. Excelling in everything that I have done and then getting to an interview where the simplest question threw me off. I honestly thought to myself. Oh my gosh... what is wrong with me. I have managed staff and basically reorganized departments within healthcare how can I not answer a simple question. Now time has passed and I can understand that experience differently but at that time I can recall that feeling of: "oh my gosh...me not that good". So yes I have empathy for these students that are unsuccessful. And yes it is not 'fair'.But beyond this it is just not right.
Carolyn you were lucky and so was I back 20 years ago. But that does not make it okay. Nor does it make these highly qualified, educated, accomplished, outstanding young individuals feel any better in the end.
In Ontario we know that there are many many qualified applicants and yet not enough positions. I remember this from when I was applying. We were all competing with each other hoping to get a spot. I was one of the lucky ones. Was I any better then the person next to me. We were probably just the same. Maybe I answered one question in the interview slightly different than him/her.
Professionally we are all accountable. All of us. The idea that there are not enough jobs out there is not true. Why is it that as a profession we are not willing to support this change in Ontario. We hear that there is a Task Force, we hear that people are trying to get things going but where is the communication? One communication posted only? How does this help reassure students?
So with a Master's degree, 20 years of clinical and management experience, I have to say we collectively need to get it together. To the unsuccessful applicants do not beat yourself up. I know it is hard but it really is a roll of the dice at this time. Will you find your way yes.. you will. How you may ask listen to your inner instincts and talk to a great coach. Someone who can guide you into the career direction you belong in. If you feel dietetics is still it, then go for it. If you find something different go with that and do not look back.
RE: why not leave your name?
And to those out there who say why won't people post their names on this blog. I ask you to consider this: When was the last time you expressed your idea on a controversial issue to your dietetic colleagues? The next day and week somehow you are excluded from a conversation or maybe they forget to include you at lunch or break meeting which you were always a part of.
Overseeing a department this is very common. I hear about it, I have to deal with it and let me tell you it is not pleasant on the person receiving this treatment.
So, with great respect I can say if I after 20 years of working in healthcare management and being in an influential position feel that I am not able to share my name on this blog. How could a student not feel this way? A student who has not even entered this profession.
So, how do internship coordinators do it? Too many highly qualified applicants and only so many spots. It is really an impossible situation.
How do educators live with this process year after year? How do you live with the futility and the heart-break? Do you really believe those who don't get it don't deserve it and that the system works to only allow those who should be accepted to be accepted? Really?
How much time is invested by all these people to write 100s of reference letters, to coach students how to present well in the interviews, to screen applicants and then actually conduct the interviews, to select the applicants, to counsel unsuccessful applicants, and to do it all over again and again and again. To the person who loves the cold hard facts, help me cost out these processes.
Then add that to the cost of the actual training and ... wow. How can this system have survived the recession!
Have any students ever received feedback as to what they could have done differently to show that they fit with the internship program? What kinds of feedback have you received from coordinators?
Dear Carolyn,
Have you read the "What more could I have done" post? I would say that this student is not targeting the internship program at all in her or his post.
Where can I find out which universities have been reprimanded for cutting back on their curriculum? What does this mean?
Do universities tell students that it is going to be really hard to get an internship? Do they publish any of the rates of success? If students know this going in then they are making a choice and need to take responsibility for that choice.
And, how much time does a student need to invest to get that edge you mention? What gives a student an edge? Seems to me they are knocking themselves out already. What more can we ask of students while at the same time do absolutely nothing to root out the problems with the system?
What a mess.
I congratulate Carolyn for sharing her thoughts! Kudos to Carolyn.
I will state my conflict of interest prior to sharing my thoughts on this matter. I am a dietitian who has taken interns for several years 15 years. I take interns in my current employment environment. And yes I was an internship coordinator long time ago. I am not trying to offend anyone in this blog. I loved being a coordinator. I enjoyed all parts of the job but the selection process. I will not devulge how many years ago it was as I still like to think of myself as a young gal!
It's definitely the most difficult position to be in. Many highly qualified applicants and the best analogy I can relate it to is that it is like a mad dash race that runs on milliseconds. What edge does someone have over someone else? Not much really. That is the hard part. Again, it is like a post said earlier. You can have answered a question one way over the other. Not that it was a wrong answer. Maybe it threw you off your game. Maybe in one answer you did not elaborate well. One would say well that shows your inability to be a good communicator or reflective. That's not that case. I interview people all the time in my current employment setting. You can see applicants who come in for jobs who really want this job. So much that they over think every question, One could say well that shows how one handles a stressful situation. Perhaps but really, if we want to illustrate how someone handles stress maybe we need to even out the playing field a bit.
In my past experience as a coordinator I witnessed over qualified students. Students who in my mind were ready to take on leadership positions that we knew would maybe struggle 'fitting' the role of a intern.
Now before you all get upset. I throw that out there so that those who read this post can reflect on all those students who are not accepted. Maybe they are overqualifed? Have we ever thought of that? I can say I saw many overqualified applicant packages and interviews many applicants that I could see going to do an MBA, or medical school.
Now coordinators today may be wondering why share your thoughts? This is my reason: We need to change. We as a profession need to change. I can understand coordinators today are probably not wiling to speak on a blog. Why would they? They are stuck in all of this mess. They have to protect their programs and most likely are the hardest working role models out there for our profession. Yes, I am biased as I was one. But really I know these are the folks that dedicate hours, hours of their time trying to figure out problems, how to help students and preceptors. These are the folks who deal with difficult decision and conflicts. They are the ones who got to bed thinking about the one intern who is struggling and how to help them.
What does the non-integrated internship process entail? Consider the big picture: applying to a DC-accredited undergraduate program, volunteering, working, studying, completing the degree, applying for internship, being qualified and getting lucky enough to get that internship, and then completing the internship.
Did I miss anything?
Owners of this blog, are you suggesting all of these stages when you say iSAD is about the "internship?" Or do you just mean the actual 40-50 week internship?
Please clarify for the confused among us.
A comment on the concept of this 'fit' when recruiting. It is not acceptable per HR standards to use this 'fit' concept in selecting an individual for a program or a job. I suggest you consult HR professionals... they will definitely tell you the same.
Personality is not an acceptable criteria for selecting a candidate for a job or an interview for a program. If it were what kind of tests are you giving candidates to assess their personality?
I highly, highly recommend you look into HR practices with recruitment, selection and hiring. Perhaps an intern should not be commenting on this aspect. Unless your program actually has asked you to and/or you do the recruitment for the program.
As for lobbying... you need to be a team. A dynamic, intelligent, diplomatic, politically/business savvy team that knows how to use everyone's strengths to the best. A team that believes in each other, trusts one another and knows that they will move forward for all interests. Those are my thoughts.
Well, if you are selected b/c you 'fit', you have the 'right' personality... How are you going to be unique and different as a whole? If you are only selecting those who are like you then you can see how you only look the same. How will you ever change and evolve?
To the person who posted at 2 April, 2011 12:46 PM
I absolutely agree with what you said about being "too qualified"...
I have been following colleagues over the past few years, and watched some of the most intelligent, mature, experienced leaders get turned away. I knew going into the interviews this year that that was going to be my "flaw"... so I tried really hard to purposefully be less confident in my interview, to tone down my ambition, to just be more mediocre, maybe. It didn't feel good.... and when I think about it, it makes me sad that I could be so dishonest with myself.
And to the poster who said the "fit" concept is against HR standards. Then why is it so often practiced? And what can be done to try to stop it?
Having participated in recruitment many times, the "fit" concept is used, I can assure you, but mainly because internship is such a valuable commodity, we need to do what we can to ensure success. Having someone leave a program mid- way prevents someone else from having the position. It is also challenging for everyone involved - preceptors, coordinator and the intern. Sometimes interns are so caught up with the challenge and competition of obtaining an internship, they lose sight of what the actual work is - being a dietitian. It's not for everyone and sometimes this is apparent in the interview.
However, I agree that we are generally not a highly diversified bunch! Need to change that too.
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